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Good Point Don

Maybe we can get an EU ruling on this one. There could be some real trademark issues here... Kind of like what they did with food. You know, it isn't Parmesan cheese unless it comes from Parma, Italy and the like.

On a side note, what if you are French Canadian? Does the Canadian part void the French part?

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Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

[QUOTE=JBreault]

On a side note, what if you are French Canadian? Does the Canadian part void the French part?[/QUOTE]

No, it just makes it denser

[QUOTE=JBreault] On a side note, what if you are French Canadian? Does the Canadian part void the French part?[/QUOTE]

Actually, it becomes "French Polish, eh?"

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

would Canadian French finishes would fall in the category of "Quebecoius Polish"

I "french polish" my classical guitars but describe my finish as spirit varnish applied with a french polish based technique.

I have use the tradition of pumice and rottenstone and got quite good results but have switched to pore filling using egg whites which is also a traditional method.

Instead of the straight mix of shellac and alcohol which I used for years, thinking that anything else would not be "real" french polish, I now add other gum resins (sandarac, mastic and bensoin) into the mix that accelerate the build time, add additional hardness without requiring a thicker film and add a depth of finish without changing the french polish technique.

This variation on "french polish" is rooted in traditional spirit varnish finishes using on violin family instruments, sans the tinted stains and coloring or the finish as is common with violin family finishes.

Like shellac and grain alcohol, these resins are also organic and edible so the result like straight shellac and alcohol (ethanol, not methanol) is non-toxic.

Shawn,
maybe you could elaborate on how you use the egg white as a pore filler.
I tried it once and was less than successful. Even after a couple of days
drying, the moisture in my hands would make it feel tacky and leave
fingerprints. I like the concept, the transparency, and the fact that it's
non-toxic, but it seemed to be more of a problem than a solution. It also
raised the grain. I'm sure it comes down to technique, like most things,
so a little insight would be helpful.
Craig

[QUOTE=csullivan] Shawn,
maybe you could elaborate on how you use the egg white as a pore filler.
I tried it once and was less than successful. Even after a couple of days
drying, the moisture in my hands would make it feel tacky and leave
fingerprints. I like the concept, the transparency, and the fact that it's
non-toxic, but it seemed to be more of a problem than a solution. It also
raised the grain. I'm sure it comes down to technique, like most things,
so a little insight would be helpful.
Craig[/QUOTE]

Not completely non-toxic. I suppose you would have to be careful about salmonella, and I don't know enough about avian flu and it's transmission to consider this a possible future risk too.

Shawn - I've heard this technique mentioned and like Craig would love to know more about the technique.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=Shawn] I "french polish" my classical guitars but describe my finish as spirit varnish applied with a french polish based technique.

I have use the tradition of pumice and rottenstone and got quite good results but have switched to pore filling using egg whites which is also a traditional method.

Instead of the straight mix of shellac and alcohol which I used for years, thinking that anything else would not be "real" french polish, I now add other gum resins (sandarac, mastic and bensoin) into the mix that accelerate the build time, add additional hardness without requiring a thicker film and add a depth of finish without changing the french polish technique.

This variation on "french polish" is rooted in traditional spirit varnish finishes using on violin family instruments, sans the tinted stains and coloring or the finish as is common with violin family finishes.

Like shellac and grain alcohol, these resins are also organic and edible so the result like straight shellac and alcohol (ethanol, not methanol) is non-toxic.[/QUOTE]

Hi Shawn,
I too mostly F.P. my guitars as I do not have a "formal" spray booth. Would you be so kind as to go into more details about the other additives you mentioned(brands, amounts etc). If possible maybe an example of your "typical" F.P. Schedule?
THANKS for your time. It is much appreciated. If you prefer you can email me at skg@siestakeyguitars.com

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Hey....we ALL want to learn here! Let's not take this off-forum! Please!

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I too think that french polish is a technique as opposed to a material. Shellac or shellac based finishes seems to be the only thing that works well with the technique. I've tried KTM-9 and I think that it could work also but I don't know if you will get the same depth that you get with shellac. Rubbing doesn't seem to change KTM-9 the way it does shellac.

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] Rubbing doesn't seem to change KTM-9 the way it does shellac.
[/QUOTE]
Well put Mike
That is the key that makes the technique so unique. The elbow grease changes the visual appearance of the shellac. Mike, that is the core of my affection for French polishing.   

I don't know what Shawn uses, but I sometimes use a recipe for my french polish according to this article, except I haven't experimented with the UV inhibitors:

http://www.ukic.org.uk/fw/cn/72-4.htm

I find that this polish builds very quickly using the french polish technique, and also seems to brush pretty well. I'm doing an entertainment center in Danish oil and this solution, and am experimenting with brushing on larger surfaces that are less visible. So far it is working well using a foam brush. I get a very quick build, and finish off with some padding to build up a gloss. Of course, in this application I don't want a high gloss - I doubt I would try this on an instrument at this point.

The recipe that I use came from Geza Burghardt who was part of a workshop at the last GAL conference. The workshop was on french polishing and featured Greg Byers, Cyndy Burton and Geza Burghardt each showing their approach to french polish.

Greg and the most traditional, Cyndy was traditional with the exception of epoxy instead of pumice for pore filling and Geza on the other hand was use a french polish technique for application but with egg white for pore filling and adding gum resins to the shellac/alcohol mix.

Both the egg white pore filler and use of gum resins in a spirit varnish have a long tradition in finishing violin family instruments.

For pore filling with egg whites you use straight egg whites that are brushed on thin and allowed to dry. It only takes one or at the most two thin coats to fill the pores. Do not put them on to thick or it will turn white. You can tint the egg white mixture with a few drops of expresso, brewed roasted chicory (found in the coffee section for cafe au lait) or tobacco juice. It is only toning the egg white not dyeing or tinting the finish.

While Greg and Cyndy got a workout building up their french polish, Geza's recipe built alot faster without being too thick, had a harder finish and in every other way was equal to any other french polish finish.

Here is the recipe:

21 grams lemon-orange shellac (more blonde than orange)
3 grams of sandarac gum resin
3 grams of mastic gum resin
3 grams of bensoin gum resin
150 milliters of alcohol (grain alcohol, not toxic)

Bring the mixture to a boil and boil for 7 minutes, let cool completely and boil again for 7 minutes. Strain through a filter 3 times and put in an airtight squeeze container.

After that the application of this finish is traditional french polish technique with a muneca.

Once I saw the results he got were faster, tougher but gave up none of the qualities that I wanted in a french polish finish, I was sold and for the last two years I have been very pleased with it.

Where can I purchase the shellac and resins?

Shawn,

Thanks for posting Geza Burghardt's recipe. He brought a guitar with him to Spain for Jose Romanillos' 70th birthday celebration and it is one of the best french polishes I have ever seen - probably THE best.

bob j - try International Violin.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Bob, one place to get the resins is Kremer Pigments, in NYC. You can also get the shellac there, or from many other places.

http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/homee.htm

Shawn,

Did Geza use waxfree shellac? It seems that, from Kremer at least, the lemon-orange shellac is waxed.

_________________
Joe Breault
Merrimack, NH
Perpetual novice

Er...BOIL alcohol? Yikes!!! Danger, Will Robinson....

Besides, there won't be any alcohol left after 14 minutes of boiling--do you add some into the mixture before polishing, or just to the pad?

The shellac is dewaxed...Hock is just one of several sources..

The key to heating the alcohol mixture is to heat it to just barely heat to a boil and not any higher (not a vigorous boil). I understand that this can be dangerous and this should only be done without distractions and with safety in mind as in any laboratory.

I use surplus lab equipment only because it is cheap, pyrex lets you see what is being heated and is easy to clean. For heating Geza's recipe I use a high sided beaker and a bunsen burner. There are other ways to heat it but I felt that it would be the safest and easiest to obtain.

The reason for heating is to completely dissolve and amalgamated the resins with the shellac. While more alcohol can be added , I would only do that while the mixture is off the burner, in between heating to be safe.

As far as application it is the same as with a traditional shellac/alcohol technique.

Hi Shawn,
            Do you apply egg white before a shellac sealer or after?
How does it hold up in the long term and are there any down sides you know of?
How long do you leave it to dry?

     Regards KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Hi again Shawn,
Do you level sand after the egg white is dry ?

Thanks in advance, KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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The egg white wash is applied before any sealer. Egg white dries nearly clear. You can try it by spreading some egg white thinly on a piece of glass. If the idea of filling the pores is just to fill then to get the surface level then an egg white coat will not add anything that would interfere with the rest of the finish. Because the egg white filler is very thin it flows and fills the pores easily. No more than two coats are usually needed.

Egg White is a very old school approach and is just one approach to filling pores. I am not saying it is better than any other method, just one that works and is organic.

Egg whites, yolks amd milk have been used in painting for centuries as it is rich in protein which is a good binder, use to source and very inexpensive. Egg yolks were/are used for Tempura paint. Tempura paintings were then sealed with a varnish based on egg whites called Glair. Milk has been used as a protein base for paints such as milk paint.

Geza's approach to sanding the surface after the egg white filler is dry is to not sand! Rather what he recommends is a 3M product called polishing cloth which is available in several grades (grit). His opinion is that at that point you do not want an abrasive operation just a gentle action to get back to a level surface but not to pull the filler out of the grain.

I have not found a source of 3M polishing cloth but because it sounded like microabrasives and I had a good stock of them (which I got from International Violin supply) I have used them and it has worked well. I still us a rigid sanding block as I would for sanding but only use the microabrasives and it works well.

Because the egg white filler is not solvent based once the surface is leveled it is very stable and ready for a shellac sealer and whatever finish you would put on top.

The reason why this combination of egg white filler and Geza's shellac recipe are appealing to me is that I only build classical guitars of which French Polish is traditional and the added benefit is that it doesnt involve any volatile chemicals. I am not opposed to Z-poxy or water based finishes and the like but am just old school so when I saw Geza's results and it kept within the range of old school techniques I was comfortable with I was convinced.

The Brune's showed me their technique for egg whites, which they actually use on the top. It's effect is to really magnify the grain lines, partly by making them darker and partly by grain raising. It gives a very nice, old-timey look that wouldn't be appropriate for most guitars and customers, but is great if that is exactly what you are looking for.